God Vs Satan

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In the Bible, God is supposed to be the good, moral father, and Satan is supposed to be an evil monster, but the Bible kind of views them both as the same – morally speaking anyway.

First off, God made Satan with full foreknowledge of what was going to happen, and then got surprised when it did. God made Satan the personification of hatred, rage and evil, which is really accurate because those are three things that the God of the Bible has a lot of! Don’t believe me? Well what about the time that God destroyed every inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah, even the innocent children and animals? or the time that God supposedly flooded the entire planet because somehow everyone on the planet had become corrupted? Or how about Numbers 11-1:3 when God murdered some people for simply complaining? Or how about…

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea; God isn’t that nice in the Bible. In fact, throughout the Bible God has killed over 2,000,000 people (Sources and further reading listed further below) whereas Satan has only killed about ten. Ten vs two million – not much of a contest. You can argue that God wants to ‘save’ people and that Satan is the evil one in Hell, but if God cared that much about people then he could do a number of things. He could provide better evidence of his existence, because unlike the Bible claims, people aren’t atheists because they hate God and want to sin. No, we don’t believe in God because there is not sufficient evidence for his existence.

Or God could make sure that people are not ‘made’ as atheists and members of other religions. If God wanted to he could snap his fingers and fix everything, but he doesn’t. God could get rid of Satan and Hell and sort everything else, but apparently he’s too busy making sure his son’s face shows up on a random person’s piece of toast to do that. Some argue that it is not yet part of God’s plan to stop Satan, but what could be taking him so long? And an omnibenevolent God wouldn’t have made this mess in the first place.

It’s bad enough that God stood by for the best part of 200,000 years and watched primitive humans die and suffer, all of them (apparently) going to Hell because he couldn’t be bothered to do something about it. And when he finally did decide to intervene, he made a book a few thousand years ago, and that was it – a book. Oh, yea, and he sent some guy to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself.

Who is worse; the one who does evil, or the one who allows evil to happen and does nothing to stop it?

Further reading:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

Video source – paste this into YouTube URL bar:

watch?v=TSKPkpTF1ns

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23 thoughts on “God Vs Satan

  1. I think that you are underestimating the intelligence of satan, you do not understand the New Covenant that Jesus’ death and resurrection brought about, you have a flawed understanding of the sacrosanct gift of free will and how it is esteemed by the divine will of God, among other things, etc. I would write more, but I’m on an Amazon kindle and on vacation, so I’m limited in how I can respond. I’m not a bible-only Christian, but a devout Catholic, who tries to live her Christian faith fully. If I have time I will try to answer some of your questions, but I, too, just started blogging and I have a lot of content that I need to place online–so many projects! I invite you to visit my blog MaryRefugeOfHolyLove, as it would help you. God bless!

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    • You claim many things,but yet you do not support them with evidence. I am willing to listen to what you have to say by all means, but claiming that I lack understanding of Christianity will do nothing unless you provide evidence. I have a post about free will (labelled as the divine plan) on my blog, where I put arguments forward for and against various aspects of free will and the so called divine plan if you want to check it out.

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  2. Thank you for your reply. I am very limited to how I can respond due to my Kindle. It is hard to type and freezes constantly, so I have to wait until I am back from vacation in front of my computer. May I ask if you ever were a Christian, and if so, which denomination? That will help me to respond to you, because I don’t know your exposure to the full gospel. Usually, protestant Christians only accept certain parts of the Gospel and reject the teachings found in tradition and the magisterium. Also, you might not be aware but the ten commandments are different between protestants and Catholics. Finally, the Catholic bible contains 7 additional Old Testament books, because Martin Luther rejected them because they support the teachings that works are necessary for salvation and support the existence of purgatory. I will write you as I can (I can’t even copy and paste on this thing). God bless!

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    • I was never a Christian, my family comes from a long line of atheists, agnostics and spiritualists. But I have spent countless hours researching atheism and religion in general, so I have a background in these fields. Most of my time spent researching was devoted to evolution and creationism, but I have done research in various denominations.

      Speaking of Catholics, there are a few things that have gone on in that denomination; particularly edits to the Bible by people here and there. It’s bad enough that the oldest records of the Bible are copies of copies of copies, and the fact that the book has been translated, edited, changes, had bits added, had bits removed and was edited again, but you have people coming along and bringing in new ideas, like declaring that Jesus was God, as well as his son, in order to prevent the ‘Jesus is inferior to God’ argument. Or the idea that Mary was actually important.

      You say that protestants reject parts of the Bible, giving the idea that they are not true Christians, but according to their own websites Catholics cannot be classed as true Christians either! http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm How can people believe in the Bible if it’s own followers cannot agree with each other?

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  3. Hi Morgan, I never said that protestant Christians are not true Christians, only that they don’t accept the full Gospel. To my knowledge, all mainstream denominations accept both the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed as their profession of faith (although, they tend to rewrite it in their own words). I cannot comment on all the non-denominational and the born again Christians, because oftentimes they deviate from both the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed. In the Catholic Church, if any truth in the Nicene Creed is denied, then that is the classification of a cult. I can only speak the Gospel according to the Catholic Church. I cannot speak to beliefs of other Christians.

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  4. Hi Morgan,
    OK, I’m back home on my regular computer, so I can type now a decent response. I’m starting with this article you wrote on satan first, because it’s important to me that your readers understand what good and evil in a soul, who satan is and what he is capable of doing to human souls, what the creation story is all about, and the meaning of death. You’ve brought up a lot of things in this article and unfortunately, do to limited space (not sure of how much I should write in a comment?), I’ll try to tackle every single argument you raise, but these are theologically dense ideas that deserve thorough answers. Also, as a bit of context, I am a creationist; I don’t believe in evolution at all; and how old the earth is, is irrelevant to understanding the creation story. I also recommend the book, “Rare Earth” to you, which was written by two agnostic scientists about ten years ago. I could recommend other (Catholic) books, but they would be harder for you to locate and purchase.
    OK, before I tackle satan and creation and death, I need to explain what good and evil is and how it relates to one’s soul. These are classical Catholic theological ideas, which were espoused by the great Catholic theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, and the early Church Fathers (the theological greats who taught during the first 600 years of Christianity). Please forgive me for not citing exact sources, but the Summa Theologica is thousands of pages, but is searchable online at New Advent Catholic site if you want to research. Also, to read many early Church Father documents, you have to pay online subscriptions, which I have done in the past, but it is not feasible for most people. I can direct you to where to purchase this stuff, though, if you are genuinely interested. I’m happy to help.
    OK, here’s a concise summary. Firstly, good and evil are opposites, but they are not equal forces. Evil is the privation of good. This means that evil is the lack of good in a soul or a spiritual being. God and satan are not equal. God is good, satan is evil. satan lacks any good. satan lacks anything of God in his being.
    This might be hard to understand abstractly, so I will provide an example from nature that perfectly illustrates this and it will also explain how free will and sin works in souls.
    In Holy Scripture, God told Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the heaven. So, imagine as you will, every soul on earth being a star in heaven. The light of each star is the presence of God (good) in each soul. Free will exists in each soul. The more free will is united to God, the brighter the light of each soul. The more free will is turned away from God, the duller the light and each sin (act against God) scars the star (soul) making it greyer and greyer. If the soul allows great evil to enter into him, the light of God disappears, and the star becomes a black hole. The star (soul) still exists, but lacks any light (good) in him.
    satan never had a soul. he is the ultimate black hole.

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    • I will note that depending on someone’s definition of ‘good’ and ‘evil’, Satan and God could be opposites or much more similar. My point of this post is to compare the things Satan has done to the things God has done. The words slew, slain, kill and killed show up far too often in the Bible, and it’s God doing most of it. This post is not meant as a full lesson on the matter, rather just an insight to who looks more evil in the Bible.

      I will also say that seeing as you are a creationist, you might be interested in seeing the ‘extra content’ section on my blog. I am not sure if you have seen it already, but I have many pages about YEC beliefs and arguments.

      Also, don’t feel like you have to give too much of a response to my posts, firstly because some of the ones that will be coming out in the future are mostly made for humor and comedy purposes, and secondly because mile-long comments both require a lot of time and a lot of space!
      To have an in-depth discussion about religion and atheism in general you could always e-mail me at m.clasper(at)outlook.com

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      • Hi Morgan,
        God is incapable of murder. He is the Author of life and death. Physical death is the decreed punishment for Original Sin. When God commands someone to be slain to death in the Bible, it is no different than someone dying by terminal illness or by natural disaster. It is the time ordained by God’s Divine Will for someone to die their natural death. What is murder is when someone tries to circumvent the time naturally ordained by God to die. Such as abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, etc. In that situation, a human being is taking on the role of God and killing someone. That is mortal sin and evil.
        Also, physical death is not evil. What is evil is eternal death. God did not abandon us by decreeing physical death as a punishment for sin against God. Jesus, Who Is God, actually became man to show us that physical death is not the end of life, but merely a passing to eternal life in heaven for those who believed and trusted in Him. This is why Christian martyrs are able to endure joyfully even torturous deaths, because for Christians, death is not the end of life, but the beginning of eternal life. That is why Saints in the Catholic Church have their feast days on the days they died and not their birthdays, because it on the days that they died, they became fully joined to God.
        What is horrible is eternal death. Eternal death is the result of a soul freely rejecting God’s Mercy, by chosing mortal sin in this life. Upon death, God simply ratifies their free will choice not to be with God, so they experience eternal death in hell. Hell is the state of existence without God. Since God is All-Good and All-Love, hell is the absence of everything of God. Suffering is created by satan and his devils and does not exist in heaven.
        Also, I used to believe in evolution and used to be very liberal, until I encountered God during surgery and it radically changed my life. I gave my yes to God’s question of me and I do not go back on my word. So, I am familiar with the arguments of evolution, but I believe in the truth of Creation now. God bless!

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        • You say that God is incapable of murder, yet you can find examples of God personally killing people, the evidence of this is listed on one of my most recent posts; ‘death count in the bible’.
          And God made evil and Satan with knowledge of what would happen, if God did not create evil, then where did it come from?
          The reasons God killed people are also not good, on several occasions God kills people for no good reason, with excuses such as ‘they questioned the Lord’ (I.E. suggesting that he should do less killing) or ‘they burned incense’.

          And yet despite the evidence for evolution and an old earth you accept creationism? What about the contradictions about the time it takes for fossils to form, the rock layers, carbon dating, geomagnetic reversals, the fossil record, distant starlight, petrification, dendrochronology, helioseismology and all of the contradictory evidence against a young earth?

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          • I agree with you except for the evolution part, which is a little shaky. The fossil record does not support it. Rather, the fossil record shows the sudden emergence of new species out of nowhere, fully complete with all their characteristics and then rarely changing over time. What’s missing are any intermediate life forms evidencing evolution. Steven Jay Gould, a well-known evolutionary biologist, has described this situation as “the trade secret of paleontology.”

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            • I will have to request some actual evidence of this before taking your claim seriously. The only argument I have heard of that kind before is the cambrain explosion, which was merely a rapid amount of evolution over a few million years.

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          • Hi Morgan,
            You are misunderstanding my earlier reply.
            Yes, God is incapable of murder. There is no difference between God using nature, natural illness, an angel, or a man, to bring about death of a human being. Only God has the Authority to decide when a man should die, as He is the Author of Life and Death and Our Creator. Nature is subject to God and His Divine Will, not God subject to nature. God is above nature, because He created the universe. So, there is no difference between God using nature or a man to bring about death of a human being. Nature, illness, angels, and men, are merely instruments that God uses to bring about death.
            The definition of murder, on the other hand, is the deliberate killing of a human being by another man before the appointed time of God’s decree for the passing over of life for that person. Murder happens when a man attempts to become like God and so, kills a person before their appointed time to die. It is a slap to God’s Face, who is the only one who can say when man should die or not.
            Also, science will never be able to discover the origin of the universe. In the Book of Job, God even tells Job that he is incapable of figuring it out. Jesus has even said in heavenly messages to mystics than humanity will never figure out how God created everything.
            Before the fall of Adam and Eve, the earth and the universe were perfect. But, after the fall, the earth, the universe, and all living creatures became imperfect. Science cannot reveal the origin of everything, because of the limits of the human mind when testing theories in natural science.
            Let me give you an example to explain this. Before the fall, Adam and Eve saw all colors of the light spectrum. After the fall, mankind became limited to seeing only the 7 or so colors of the visible light spectrum. Catholic mystics who have visited heaven, have reported that they have encountered colors that we are incapable of seeing in earth. But, they cannot explain what these colors look like to us.
            It is beyond the limits of the fallen human mind to imagine new colors. We are aware that other colors exist in light, but we cannot conceive of what they look like.
            It is the same with science. Science is trying to figure out the origin of the universe, which was perfect at its conception, but the universe is now corrupted through sin. It is beyond the human mind to understand the origin of everything, because our minds are too limited and science is testing theories in an imperfect earth and an imperfect state of the universe.
            Thus, the arguments for a young or old earth/universe are irrelevant. Science will never be able to explain perfection when it is testing an imperfect universe. It is beyond its scope.
            I wish I could write more, but I’m at work and have over a hundred emails and other things to do from vacation. I will write more when I get home. God bless!

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            • I would call God personally flooding the Egyptian army murder, or the killing of all firstborn in Egypt. I still do not think that killing 510,070 people for simply looking into the Ark is a moral thing to do, or God killing 14,700 people for questioning him.
              I do not think that it is possible to view all colors of the spectrum at once, because it would be impossible to see in normal color and infrared at the same time. But this means that humans would get extra body parts to allow them to do these thing – but that’s really besides the point.
              You are correct that we cannot figure out everything, especially the origin of the universe, because we have nothing to work with. We can trace the universe back to the Big Bang, but we have nothing to find out what – if anything – was before it. Likewise we cannot hope to discover what is outside of this universe, if there is anything at all. But we can have confidence through many scientific fields and research that the Biblical creation story is likely false.
              Science isn’t about finding ‘perfection’, it’s about finding natural explanations for why and how things work.

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              • Hi Morgan,
                It seems that we can’t agree on the definition of murder and evil. Usually, in a court of law, if the defense and prosecution can’t agree on definitions, then it becomes impossible to try and convict someone of a crime. So, it’s kind of fruitless to argue about the death count in the Bible at this point.
                Also, it is impossible to understand Holy Scripture, especially, the Old Testament, if you don’t know what love is and means. God is Love and you have to view salvation history through the lenses of love to understand it.
                In Holy Scripture, Jesus tells us that all the commandments and laws and rules of the Torah are based upon the Two Greatest Commandments—one, to love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength, and then, second to that, you must love others as yourself.
                True Love is not possible without free will choice. When God the Father created the angels and man, it is because He desired to have a family. The essence of God—the Holy Trinity—is Love of family. God the Father loves God the Son and that love is so all-encompassing, it is a third divine person, the Holy Spirit. God is Triune, because True Love is only possible between persons. Love can’t simply exist on its own. You have to have somebody to love, in order to have real love. You can’t simply love yourself—that’s pride and the opposite of who God is. True Love is selfless and all-giving.
                Also, to have True Love, you have to have free will choice. When God created us, He desired a family, not slaves. True love is only possible between persons if they are free to accept or reject it. Anything less is coercion and God will not force His Divine Will on his creatures, us, in order to make us love Him. We have to be free to respond to Him.
                Evil exists, because of free will. God did not create evil, He merely permits it to exist, because of His love for us and the decision He made in eternity before He created us—He made the decision to allow His Heart to ache and be broken if we reject His love.
                The examples that you gave, about not good enough reasons, well, you are interpreting the Old Testament wrongly. The Greatest Commandment is to love God with everything you are. As Jesus said, to be perfect in love as your Heavenly Father is perfect. The depth of love is directly measured by the amount of trust you have in the person you love. The ancient Israelites did not love God enough to trust that as a Loving Father He had their best intentions at heart and that He knew better than them what would be good and holy for them. This is the same failure that Adam and Eve did not love God enough, so they failed to trust in God that His Commandments were good enough for them to follow and so, they ate the forbidden fruit after being tempted.
                In the Old Testament, God the Father keeps trying to raise His fallen children up to Himself in love by establishing several covenants with them so He could shower them with blessings. But, each time, they kept failing to keep the covenants and commandments by continuing to sin, so they kept experiencing the curses instead of the blessings of keeping the law. This is, for example, why the ancient Israelites ended up becoming slaves to the Egyptians, etc.
                So, finally, God the Son incarnated as a Man to save them and ultimately, all of humanity, from the wages of sin and eternal death. Jesus kept all the covenants and commandments of God perfectly and showed us through His suffering and death, that God did not abandon us from His Love. Jesus became our sacrifice and our substitute before God the Father and Divine Law. If we believe in Jesus, trust in Him, and follow His ways, then not only will we experience all the blessings of Jesus perfectly fulfilling the law of God, we will be raised up to eternal life.
                I want to write more to answer your questions about Creation, but I think I wrote enough in this response. God bless! 🙂

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      • Hi chicagoja,
        Yes, God created satan, as God created every angel and every human soul. I don’t follow your logic, unless you are trying to infer that God somehow created evil, too, when He created satan. That is a fallacy, as God is incapable of evil. Evil is the opposite of God. True Love is impossible without free will choice. God gave every angel the gift of love and free will at the moment of their creation. satan through his free will choice rejected that gift of love, so he forfeited his right to be with God. He chose not to love God for the gift of his life and rejected being a part of God’s Divine Plan from the beginning. So, satan chose to hate and not love and created hell for himself and the angels that followed him.
        If you need me to explain the creation of the angels and how they were tested, let me know. I recognize that most people do not properly know the story of Creation, because it is not fully explained in Holy Scripture. But, if you helps you, I can explain it to you, as it is according to Catholic Tradition–the writings of the early Church Fathers, St. Thomas Aquinas, the writings of Blessed Mary Agreda (“The Mystical City of God”) and St. Anne-Catherine Emmerich. God bless!

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        • Good explanation. Just one thing that I’m curious about, though. if God created life and gave that life free will didn’t he know that at times the choice would be evil?

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          • Hi chicagoja,
            Please see the reply I gave to Morgan. It would be very helpful to read. 🙂
            Yes, God knew that the gift of free will might result in His Love being rejected. That is the chance God took when He created all of us.
            God is All-Knowing. He is aware of the future and all the potential futures as the result of and repercussions of sin and acts of love. That is why only God has the right to judge.
            I do not claim to know all things about God, especially, when it comes to the meaning of free will and how it affects the future. I’ll admit that I am not that smart. 🙂 However, I do know that God gives every grace He can so his creatures, us, will choose to love Him, but ultimately, it is our choice.
            Before the universe and man was created, God created heaven and the angels in a single instance. After He created the angels, He asked them three questions and gave them short intervals (pauses) for them to make their decisions.
            There are 9 choirs of angels. Lucifer was of the seraphim choir, which is the highest choir to the Throne of God and he was also the greatest angel God created—he was the most intelligent, most beautiful, and most gifted. He was second only to God.
            When the angels were created, they were each given the gift of love and the gift of free will.
            God revealed to the angels that He created them and when God asked the angels the first question, Lucifer answered it imperfectly. The first question posed by God was this: Will you honor and obey me as Your Creator?
            Lucifer answered the question with a yes, but the yes was imperfect. He answered it from his intellect, not his heart. Due to his great intellect, he could not conceive of how else he could respond, because he had all these talents and gifts from God, but he said yes without love in his heart. He allowed his initial thoughts to blind him to the love God had given him to freely respond back with.
            In the second question, Lucifer began to sin. The second question was this: God revealed that He would create inferior creatures, mankind, and that He desired the angels to be their helpers.
            The mere thought of serving humanity—material beings with a spiritual soul, who would be created inferior to him, was greatly repugnant to Lucifer and his great intellect. He said no to God.
            Then, in the third question, the war in heaven broke out. God revealed to the angels that God planned to Incarnate as a human being and that He would be both God-Man as King of the angels and humanity.
            Not only did Lucifer say no to God, he demanded that God make him king of all and began to recruit the other angels to his side. I believe you know the rest (i.e., kicked out of heaven, etc.).
            God knew there was a chance that Lucifer would say no, but God opened His Heart to heartache over that possibility through the act of Creation. God desired to give Lucifer a chance to live.
            When Adam and Eve were created, they were created also perfectly with the gift of love and free will. However, humanity is inferior to the angels. We do not have the great intellects and other gifts that were given to the angels from the beginning. The testing of humanity’s love would be different.
            Again, there was a possibility that Adam and Eve would reject God. But, God gave them every grace possible and hoped they would choose His love. Sadly, Adam and Eve failed the test, because they listened to satan’s lies.
            If Adam and Eve had rejected satan, every human being would have been born in a state of grace and would have freely chosen to love God. This is because every human being would have been raised from infancy into adulthood by loving families who would have instilled in them the values important to God and by the age of reason, there would be no doubt of God and His Love, living in the perfection of the earth and Creation.
            Sadly, this has not been the case. God bless!

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            • I don’t know everything either but I do have a discerning eye. First of all, God created the environment where evil would most certainly occur. He created life, he created free will and being all-knowing he knew in advance what choices Adam and Eve would make. He knew. Therefore, he actually wanted evil to occur for reasons that are somewhat obvious to me but I’m sure that you would disagree with so I don’t want to belabor the point. You say that God took a chance when he created us but in fact God, being all-knowing, therefore knew that evil would be chosen and he created man anyway. The logic is only difficult to follow when one has been indoctrinated to have a belief system that belies that logic.

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              • Hi Chicagoja,
                You are free to believe what you will. I respect your opinion, although I disagree with it.
                I am not qualified to, nor do I desire to question God about His Divine Plan for us. I simply share what I know so others can decide for themselves to cooperate or not with His Plan. It is a decision that everyone is free to make.
                I love God with all my heart and I trust in Him. This means that I trust that He has the best intentions for me and all humanity. God is superior in wisdom to me and I freely gave Him gave him my intellect a longtime ago, so He could instead fill me with His Divine Wisdom. I only share what I know through prayer, study, and discernment.
                Finally, the many future generations of souls–hundred of billions–who will live after the Second Coming of Christ and who will never see death, suffering, evil, or sin, and will live in perfect love with God, I think will be eternally grateful to God for the chance to be alive. By then, the counted number of souls who freely chose hell will dwarf in comparison. Was that the right decision to make? Obviously, God decided it was just for the generations yet to be born, because we exist in His Creation. I don’t question my God. I am grateful to be alive and to know His Love in this life. I seek nothing else. God bless!

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                • I appreciate your kind words and, like you, I share what I know in the hope that others will want to learn the truth which has come to me through revelation. The question I am posing is why is Christian theology inconsistent with the Bible?

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